Kevin's Reviews > The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture

The Myth of Normal by Gabor Maté
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it was amazing
bookshelves: health-biomedical, health-public-social, theory-psych, econ-health, 2-brilliant-intros-101, 1-how-the-world-works
Read 2 times. Last read December 16, 2022 to December 30, 2022.

The Myth of Jordan Peterson?

Preamble:
--Before you celebrate or groan, let me clarify that direct mentions of Jordan Peterson are only featured in one chapter, on parenting. Peterson’s 2018 best-seller (12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos, see link for review) is, after all, cleverly packaged as a self-help book, so it features plenty of vague “See the truth. Tell the truth.”, “order and chaos” generalities to lure us in and interpret in our own ways if our confirmation biases are susceptible to Peterson's convenient omissions/framing.
--My comparison considers the politics/philosophy behind their general approaches with addressing individual and social ills. Both start from careers involving psychology, in Canada:
a) Peterson, a clinical psychologist (although his massive popularity was spurred by politicized media from his 2016 YouTube videos critiquing a Canadian gender identity discrimination bill).
b) Maté, a physician with a focus on addiction/trauma/mental illness.
…A comparison is revealing for both sides; I’m particularly fascinated with the ways Peterson attracts audiences with often similar concerns (although perhaps differences in confirmation biases) only to lead them down opposing paths.

Highlights:

--General approaches:
i) Identifying causes:
a) Peterson’s “chaos” from “Western civilization” losing traditional Christian values (lack of meaning leading to nihilism’s “chaos”) because of Western science’s “materialist” overreach and “postmodern Neo-Marxist” “political correctness” trying to evade conflicts. (Note: capitalism/colonialism are avoided).
b) Maté’s “toxic culture” of capitalism/colonialism (society dominated by a volatile economy driven by the singular, asocial value of private profits) forcing constant dislocation, colonizing communal social relations and leaving behind normalized alienation.

ii) Solutions (individual):
a) Peterson’s self-help to find personal meaning in Christian values while normalizing trauma to best fit into the meritocratic hierarchy.
b) Maté’s self-inquiry to heal from trauma-normalization and build self-authenticity.

iii) Solutions (social):
a) Peterson’s faith in Western tradition’s meritocratic hierarchy (thus, the fix is on the individual level).
b) Maté’s challenge of “toxic culture” (capitalism/colonialism/bigotry/old science’s reductionism) with decolonization to rebuild communal relations/social values, incorporating new science’s holistic systems understanding (specifically: trauma-informed biopsychosocial medicine).


--Unpacking Maté step-by-step (and side-by-side Peterson):

1) Old science’s reductionist materialism:
--Peterson frames Western science as a “materialist” response to institutional Christianity’s difficulties in addressing real-world material conditions/suffering (as Christianity focused on spiritual salvation). Despite material gains, immaterial Christian values were forgotten which science’s materialism could not replace, eroding “Western civilization” and opening the door to nihilism’s despair or utopic “totalitarianism”. Peterson's lure is his acknowledgment of growing concerns over the lack of social meaning/values and stress from volatility (“chaos”). But what is Peterson omitting?
--Maté also addresses such concerns and wants to revive the immaterial (Ch.2: Living in an Immaterial World: Emotions, Health, and the Body-Mind Unity). Of course, Maté takes a different direction since Peterson predictably avoids key historical drivers behind Western science: capitalism/colonialism, i.e. technical and ideological innovations in profit-seeking and conquest (Peterson breaking his own “RULE #8: Tell the truth—or, at least, don’t lie” with a convenient “sin of omission”).
--I’ll refer to this as “old science” and use this section to fill in the big picture context which Maté only hints at. Old science’s powers of discovery relied on deconstruction (we can visualize with words like “dissecting”, “atomizing”, etc.); weaponized by cancerous, asocial profit-seeking, this led to a reductionist materialism: humans were reduced to labour (an input for capitalist production) which was reduced to body parts and mechanized with machines to maximize profits in the “dark Satanic mills” (William Blake, 1808) of the Industrial Revolution. We can also witness society’s anxieties of tragedy (esp. loss of human control) in this great transformation of old science’s reductionist mechanization in Frankenstein (1818).
--As Europe’s social crisis mounted (only relieved with migration to settler colonies), foreign societies were reduced to raw materials (colonial plantations) and even cheaper body parts (slaves, “coolies”) to feed Western industrialization. This is capitalism’s materialism, to fulfil the viral logic of endless private accumulation; this abstract, asocial mechanization has only grown to haunt our social imagination since 1818 Frankenstein, from Charlie Chaplin’s 1936 film Modern Times to the 1999 film The Matrix.
--A cultural consequence has been the wiping away of social values (both domestic and foreign) of unity/balance (between mind/body/spirit; human/nature):
-ex. for Descartes’ dualism in Western old science separating mind vs. body, human vs. nature, etc., see Less is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World, in particular Ch.1 “Capitalism – A Creation Story” vs. Ch.6 “Everything is Connected”.
-ex. see Ch.8 of This Changes Everything: Capitalism vs. The Climate:
The institution [The Royal Society, the pioneering scientific academy founded in 1660] was at the forefront of Britain’s colonial project, sponsoring voyages by Captain James Cook (including the one in which he laid claim to New Zealand), and for over forty years the Royal Society was led by one of Cook’s fellow explorers, the wealthy botanist Joseph Banks, described by a British colonial official as “the staunchest imperialist of the day.” [emphases added]
--Instead of only critiquing science’s values (Peterson), what is capitalism’s value system? (See later). Furthermore, Peterson can only counter his vague science-materialism by proselytizing the immaterial values of the Christian Bible, a non-solution when he accepts capitalism (will the Bible be sufficient for capitalist profit-seeking, besides selling Peterson’s self-help books and filling arenas for megachurches? What will this do to traditional values?). The sad irony is that Peterson also blames “postmodern/neo-Marxist” ideology for destroying his traditional values, when the only Marxist book (pamphlet, really) he seems bothered to read identifies the capitalist culprit:
Constant revolutionising of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch [i.e. capitalism, with its singular endless profit-seeking, competition’s “creative destruction”, boom/bust volatility] from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses, his real condition of life, and his relations with his kind. [-The Communist Manifesto; emphases added; sadly, the last bit has not occurred for reactionaries like Peterson]

2) New science’s holistic synthesis:
--Returning to Maté, old science’s reductionist materialism created a Western medical paradigm that:
i) Reduces complexities of human health to biology.
ii) Separates mind vs. body.
--Maté confronts this directly with “new science”. Note: relatively “new” in Western science, i.e. complex systems where the overall system is greater than the sum of its reductionist parts (Thinking in Systems: A Primer); also, as long as capitalism remains the economic driver, “new science” cannot transform the real world (ex. climate science vs. current practice).
--Applied to medicine, this requires a new paradigm: biopsychosocial medicine. In other words, social health far broader than a 15-minute doctor visit when things are already falling apart for symptomatic, drug-induced relief/isolated interventions.
--Reductionist biology focuses on genetics. However, hopes for the holy grail of genetic answers for illnesses have receded with the lackluster Human Genome Project, replaced with the growing recognition of epigenetics: environmental experiences triggering gene expression.
--Maté starts with trauma, especially a broader definition that features conflicts in:
i) Attachment: social belonging, starting with parental nurturing.
ii) Authenticity: autonomy, our true nature, which needs to be developed.
--Human’s uniquely long infancy is particularly vulnerable to trauma. Human infants are so undeveloped for so long that the typical defensive responses of fight or flight are not available. So, the remaining survival mechanism to trauma is freeze: suppression (in a sense, self-blame) is more tolerable than fearing the environment (esp. the parents) is dangerous with no escape.
--However, as infants lack rationality/conscious decision-making, this risks the freeze response becoming stuck, derailing the healthy development of response flexibility. This disconnection starts to manifest as chronic self-blame, lack of self-worth, anxiety, self-harm, etc. The infant is taught that only certain parts of themselves are acceptable, stunting development of authenticity (compare with Peterson on parenting, see later!). I was particularly disturbed by the infant’s freeze response lacking conscious control (“suppression” = conscious), hiding more in the subconscious (“repression”); this means while chronic stress manifests in the body (triggering inflammation, increasing susceptibility to mental/auto-immune illnesses etc.; see Maté’s When the Body Says No: The Cost of Hidden Stress), the mind does not detect it. Signals (ex. pain) are crucial for keeping us safe, to warn us to adjust our behaviors.
--Rather than relying on Peterson’s convenient crutch of “life is suffering” (God’s mysterious ways, or the reductionist-materialist equivalent of random genetics/bad luck), new science’s biopsychosocial medicine is exploring the complex unifying relations at play. Instead of merely treating illness (especially chronic illness and its growing prevalence) as external invaders that must be defeated in a war, illnesses may provide signals/meaning of deeper imbalances (“disease as teacher”). Maté is most renowned for his work on addiction as a coping mechanism to pain/social dislocation, rather than the focus on genetics/chemicals: In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction. Another vivid example is certain personality traits and cancers. Such complexities should not be reduced to simple linear causations, but completely neglecting such relations is also not helpful.

...see comments below for the rest of this review (Peterson on parenting, Capitalism's toxic culture, Healing, New science vs. pseudoscience?)...
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Reading Progress

January 13, 2022 – Shelved
December 1, 2022 – Started Reading
December 15, 2022 – Finished Reading
December 16, 2022 – Started Reading
December 30, 2022 – Finished Reading

Comments Showing 1-50 of 75 (75 new)


message 1: by Rebecca (new) - added it

Rebecca Fantastic review Kevin! This one has been on my radar 👌🏻💖


message 2: by Kevin (last edited Jan 29, 2023 12:45AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kevin 3) The Myth of Jordan Peterson: Parenting Trauma (and Illness?):

--Now, let’s bring Peterson back, as Maté directly challenges him on parenting. Let’s quote from Peterson’s “RULE #5: Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them” (emphases added):
Here’s a fifth and final and most general principle. Parents have a duty to act as proxies for the real world—merciful proxies, caring proxies—but proxies, nonetheless. This obligation supersedes any responsibility to ensure happiness, foster creativity, or boost self-esteem. It is the primary duty of parents to make their children socially desirable [“socialization” to society’s “normal”]. That will provide the child with opportunity, self-regard, and security [a better place in society’s hierarchy]. It’s more important even than fostering individual identity [Maté’s “authenticity”].
…Unpacking Peterson’s contradictory views of society (life = universal suffering; universal hierarchies where the poor suffer the worst, yet still trust in its meritocracy) requires a separate review (my next); the narrow parenting critique here is that Peterson normalizes trauma for the purpose of molding infants (under age of 4) into the “normal” of Maté’s “toxic culture” (emphasis added).
--Peterson on why under the age of 4:
If a child has not been taught to behave properly by the age of four, it will forever be difficult for him or her to make friends. The research literature is quite clear on this. This matters, because peers are the primary source of socialization after the age of four. Rejected children cease to develop, because they are alienated from their peers [Palm meets face. Maté wrote an entire book on how “peer orientation” is indeed a growing problem for healthy development, Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers, but Peterson conveniently accepts the normal and proceeds from there…].
--Peterson’s trauma normalization is made more palatable as “minimum necessary force”. In defending the potential need for physical trauma, Peterson downplays physical trauma by exposing his recognition of psychological trauma in infant disciplinary tactics before endorsing them as well [empahses added]:
[…] we should note that almost all those sanctions involve punishment in its many psychological and more directly physical forms. Deprivation of liberty causes pain in a manner essentially similar to that of physical trauma. The same can be said of the use of social isolation (including time out). We know this neurobiologically. The same brain areas mediate response to all three, and all are ameliorated by the same class of drugs, opiates [great…]. Jail is clearly physical punishment—particularly solitary confinement—even when nothing violent happens. [Lovely, using a comparison with prison solitary confinement, recognized as a form of torture, only to later endorse time-outs as “an extremely effective form of punishment”].
--Maté emphases that his focus on infant trauma is not meant to focus blame on the parents, but on the multi-generational toxic culture that Peterson instructs us to cherish. How much trauma must we inflict/absorb to conform to “normal”? What are the costs, especially on infants? I have a final, grim example of Peterson’s disconnect which I’ll bury to the end of this review, as Maté did not mention it (although I cannot imagine it went unnoticed).


message 3: by Kevin (last edited Feb 02, 2024 03:30PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kevin 4) Toxic Culture, Capitalism’s Normal:

--Maté diagnoses how toxic culture’s trauma normalization rewards behaviors of infliction/suppression as virtues; such behaviors almost work, characteristic of addiction. In interviews, Maté has considered the trauma behind various leaders.
--Peterson would immediately retreat into hand-waving about “hierarchy”, expanding its permanence to “civilization”, to “human nature”, to creatures (infamously, lobsters), to existence. Maté instead considers the sheer range in human behaviors. “Civilization” is a small portion of “human nature”, and critical anthropology notes the importance placed on good social relations over mere self-interest, and the successes from cooperation. We are a mess of contradictions, but our social development expects a certain degree of reciprocity. Healthy development is based on certain expectations of a healthy environment.
--How is a toxic culture increasing environmental stresses? Once again, let’s start with big picture context before we get to Maté. Markets for buying/selling certain commodities predates “capitalism”; we can call these “societies with markets”. We can contrast these with the “market society” (capitalism), which features 3 peculiar markets (land/labour/money) buying/selling “fictitious commodities” (nature/humans/purchasing power) since these are not real commodities “produced” for buying/selling (Talking to My Daughter About the Economy: or, How Capitalism Works—and How It Fails). Market relations (esp. from capitalist expansion) are asocial relationships between competitive strangers, compared to many social alternatives (Debt: The First 5,000 Years). Finally, corporations are Frankensteinesque creations: The Corporation: The Pathological Pursuit of Profit and Power.

--A single generation (from Maté’s youth to today) has seen dramatic loss of community from market expansions:
i) Finance capital can traverse the globe in nanoseconds, sweeping away communities in booms (gentrifying bubbles) and busts (capital flight/rust belts/opioid slums/mega slums in Global South): And the Weak Suffer What They Must? Europe's Crisis and America's Economic Future. Social dislocation is a constant feature of capitalism (romanticized as “creative destruction”).
ii) Land/labour are increasingly pushed into the volatile global market, trying desperately to keep up with the mobility of finance capital. Strangers and mechanized abstractions replace the long-term social relations required to build communities (note: Peterson would latch onto my mention of “strangers” so he can blame the “postmodern Neo-Marxist” ideology supporting diversity, rather than capitalism's volatile labour demands; typical mealy-mouthed shill obscuring power structures).
--Maté correctly highlights the overarching stress of capitalism’s economic uncertainty, although he relies on tame economic critics like Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz (at least he mentions Naomi Klein, a useful bridge). On social dislocation’s connections with illness, Lost Connections: Uncovering the Real Causes of Depression - and the Unexpected Solutions is cited. Marx’s worker “alienation” is cited; we can go deeper into commodity fetishism: Capital: A Critique of Political Economy, Volume 1. Further stresses cited include racism and burdens on female care work.

--Now, let’s connect environmental stresses to Maté’s trauma-informed biopsychosocial medicine:
i) Prenatal: inter-uterine stress of the mother (who absorbs partner/family stress) already affects the unborn.
ii) Birth: old science mechanized/pathologized childbirth (where technology is superior to women’s defective bodies) in the stressful setting of hospitals, extracting childbirth from communities of women (ex. midwives; Caliban and the Witch: Women, the Body and Primitive Accumulation). Capitalist logic treats hospitals as factories. New science is starting to recognize the consequences of rigid overreach (discrimination of midwives, unneeded surgical episiotomies, high rates of c-sections and rigidity in avoiding VBAC vs. vaginal birth and healthy microbiome/immune system, separation vs. skin-to-skin bonding, etc.), seeking a synthesis.
iii) Parenting: as discussed earlier, trauma-normalization prioritizes the parent’s needs (Peterson’s “RULE #5: Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them”), which are actually dictated by toxic culture’s needs (rigid work schedule, with increasing precarity and volatility) rather than the infant’s need for healthy development or even parental instincts. Instincts of prompt responsiveness are eroded by instructions to “socialize” crying babies to suppress their stress, starting with hospital feeding/sleeping times. Parenting is increasingly isolated and distracted with the loss of community support (“evolved nest”), neglecting the bonding for healthy childhood development (attachment/security/vulnerability/free play) and leaving children reliant on peer orientation (Peterson’s socialize-before-age-4).
iv) Teaching: education serving the capitalist economy treats schools as factories, repressing curiosity and producing cogs for profit-seeking machines. Once again, new science is slowly recognizing what was long known by critical social sciences regarding the under-development of emotional intelligence, competition for outcomes creating dependency on external approval rather than self-esteem, etc.
v) Advertising: the neuroscience of addiction is literally used (“neuro marketing”), targeting pleasure (short-term relief requiring more, thus profitable; dopamine/endorphins/opioids) while suppressing happiness (long-term contentment, thus not requiring more so end of profits; serotonin). This is particularly appalling when it exploits child development. For more on the capitalist profits/psychology of consumerism, see: Gone Tomorrow: The Hidden Life of Garbage. Also, where are the conservatives who critique capitalism’s materialist consumerism eroding traditional values?! Peterson’s critiques of materialism eroding values (omits capitalism and justifies hierarchy) typifies John Kenneth Galbraith’s quip:
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.



message 4: by Kevin (last edited Apr 14, 2023 10:15PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kevin 5) Healing: Personal-Social:

--Maté highlights:
i) Self-inquiry: in contrast to trauma suppression, Maté details several methods (Relabel/Reattribute/Refocus/Revalue/Recreate) with the aim of breaking from the childhood trance (particularly difficult with repression) in order to build healthy response flexibility (Authenticity/Agency/Anger/Acceptance). Using “disease as teacher”, suppression/other adaptations to trauma are no longer foes to be eliminated, but have a seat at the table for negotiation. While not much space is left to bring this to life, Maté cites numerous books with more personal explorations to reference.
ii) Trauma-informed biopsychosocial medicine: as detailed above, new science is finally challenging old science’s reductionist, colonial legacy.
iii) Activism/Advocacy: Maté’s career trajectory is starting from the individual/personal (doctor) and expanding out, which this latest book being the furthest outward in considering the environment. My interests have started with the big picture environment (with plenty of critiques and, let’s not forget, alternatives to capitalism/colonialism) and slowly worked back to the personal:
-Less is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World
-Another Now: Dispatches from an Alternative Present
-Struggle Makes Us Human: Learning from Movements for Socialism
-A People’s Green New Deal
If we could begin to see much illness itself not as a cruel twist of fate or some nefarious mystery but rather as an expected and therefore normal consequence of abnormal, unnatural circumstances, it would have revolutionary implications for how we approach everything health related.


6) The Personal is Political?

--Referenced earlier as something I didn’t want to be misinterpreted as a personal attack, I got over this hesitancy because readers can just as easily misunderstand my arguments on capitalism. This aversion to something “too personal” reminds me of “Empathy’s Failures”, a terrific article in Goldacre’s I Think You'll Find It's a Bit More Complicated Than That, which ends with “This [personal] story always makes me cry a little bit. Two million people die of Aids every year. It never has the same effect.”
--I’m also reminded of Goldacre’s Bad Science: Quacks, Hacks, and Big Pharma Flacks (emphasis added):
The pediatrician Dr. Benjamin Spock wrote a record-breaking bestseller titled Baby and Child Care, first published in 1946, that was hugely influential and largely sensible. In it, he confidently recommended that babies should sleep on their tummies. Dr. Spock had little to go on; but we now know that this advice is wrong, and the apparently trivial suggestion contained in his book, which was so widely read and followed, has led to thousands, and perhaps even tens of thousands, of avoidable crib deaths.
…Just as I would not direct blame at Dr. Spock personally (let alone mock him), I would still feel obliged to not cover up this tragedy. Furthermore, unlike with Dr. Spock’s advice, I am *not* attributing direct causation in the Peterson quotes below (as that is difficult with chronic illness); the point is to reveal the complete disconnect:

a) Peterson’s trauma-normalizing disconnect [emphases added]:
A properly socialized three-year-old is polite and engaging. She’s also no pushover. She evokes interest from other children and appreciation from adults. She exists in a world where other kids welcome her and compete for her attention, and where adults are happy to see her, instead of hiding behind false smiles. She will be introduced to the world by people who are pleased to do so. This will do more for her eventual individuality than any cowardly parental attempt to avoid day-to-day conflict and discipline. […]

When [she] was little, I could paralyze her into immobility with an evil glance. […]

Severe polyarticular juvenile idiopathic arthritis (JIA). Cause? Unknown. Prognosis? Multiple early joint replacements. What sort of God would make a world where such a thing could happen, at all?—much less to an innocent and happy little girl? It’s a question of absolutely fundamental import, for believer and non-believer alike.

b) Maté’s trauma-informed biopsychosocial medicine [emphases added]:
None of the specialists who looked after Mee Ok inquired about the conditions—physical and emotional—that preceded her life-blighting illness. This, despite the voluminous research that links stress, trauma, and inflammation, and despite the multiple studies that over many decades have explored such connections in rheumatoid arthritis, in MS, and in other autoimmune conditions. Not only are such possible lines of inquiry not pursued, but they seem to be verboten in mainstream circles. “I’ve come to feel a little bit off the wall when talking about these issues,” a specialist in rheumatic diseases at one of the best-known U.S. teaching hospitals told me. “Since my graduation I have markedly changed the way I practice, because I started observing in my patients the relation between stress and the onset of their disease, and how great a role trauma, psychological and physical, plays in their disease.” This doctor, who requested anonymity for fear of alienating her colleagues (!), has observed firsthand what she calls “remarkable results” among her patients, both in terms of recovery and even, in some cases, getting off medications altogether. [...]

Had Mee Ok’s doctors inquired along these lines when she presented her distressing symptoms, they would have learned that she had sustained two major abandonments by the end of her first year. [...] She had completely repressed these memories, secreted them and all associated feelings—pain, terror, rage—deep beneath the surface of her awareness. As we will see later when we discuss healing, Mee Ok’s improbable recovery, veritably a deathbed resurrection, owed everything to her confronting this long-buried trove of hurt.

Upon the emotional graveyard of what she could not afford to feel, Mee Ok erected an impressive edifice: a positive, can-do persona that not only kept her from experiencing her despair and impelled her to ignore her own needs, but also helped her achieve success beyond what she really believed was her due. [...] Such hyperfunctioning on top of hidden inner distress is a recurring theme among the many autoimmune patients I’ve encountered in my years of practice and teaching.

Just prior to the onset of her agonizing joint inflammation, Mee Ok was in a complicated romantic partnership whose many ups and downs took a psychic toll and culminated in a wrenching breakup. All the lifelong hurt she could not allow herself to experience, all her terror of abandonment, showed up in her reactions to the loss of the relationship. It was a full-body grief response. Once more, none of her history, from childhood to the present day, was considered as admissible evidence by the highly trained experts who treated her scleroderma. “My body was really like a battleground, and I was losing,” Mee Ok told me. Her language resonated with me: I’ve long pictured autoimmune disease as resembling a powerful army invading its own motherland, a violent mutiny against the body. In effect, with no conscious outlet and lacking resolution, Mee Ok’s inflamed emotions rebelled, manifesting in the inflammation of her tissues.

Microbiologists these days speak of “neurogenic inflammation,” stress-induced inflammation triggered by discharges of the nervous system—a system we now understand to be powerfully influenced by emotions. And there is elegant research connecting early adversity, such as the traumas Mee Ok endured in childhood, to inflammation in adult life. [...]

Some clinicians have noted a relationship between rheumatoid arthritis and certain types or features of personality. [...] A case in point is forty-two-year-old Julia, from one of Canada’s prairie provinces, diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis at age twenty-nine. [...] None of Julia’s treating physicians ever asked about her inner life. Why does that matter? Because such personality patterns as Dr. Robinson and others have observed are reversible and, with them, so may be the disease. Despite having been told the illness would inevitably progress, Julia is now symptom-free and medication-free. “I have beautiful conversations with my rheumatoid arthritis these days—it makes me want to cry telling you,” she said to me. “I’m great.” What could such a statement mean, and why so deeply felt in Julia’s case? We will return to these “beautiful conversations” later, when we look at healing.



message 5: by Kevin (last edited Apr 14, 2023 10:18PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kevin 7) New science vs. pseudoscience?:

--Re-reading this book was helpful, as I got over the initial excitement and could focus on lingering critiques.
--Regarding public understanding of “science”, it’s crucial to avoid these two extremes:
i) Reducing complexities with plenty of uncertainties (ex. personality traits and cancers) into simple linear causations, falling prey to our surface-level pattern-seeking (biases/“heuristics”).
ii) Evading the existence of such relationships.
…This actually leaves a rather large and messy middle-ground to investigate! The danger of this book wading into New science: such a paradigmatic shift creates disruptions vulnerable to pseudoscience opportunists. There may be a rush to make new claims before they are better substantiated, so how should we take the uncertainties/risks into account?

--Let’s unpack this step-by-step:
i) Profit-seeking media: completely distorts public understanding of “mainstream science” with sensationalist headlines of “scientists say…” to sell (turning news into a commodity; “churnalism”) and foster a dependence on authority figures (creating artificial demand by disempowering the public from learning the basics of the scientific method for themselves and its various applications/limitations).
ii) “Alternative” snake-oil salespeople: then take advantage of this with crude slogans against the status quo/the State/mainstream science (ex. “Big Pharma”, which is a problem, see later) only to (once again) sell you their authoritative pseudoscience products (still creating artificial demand with no transparency/nuance). You cannot provide meaningful alternatives if your had faulty critiques to begin with.
iii) Mainstream science institutions: to combat our pattern-seeking biases, medical science has been going through a paradigmatic shift (as recently as from the 1970s-80s!) from “eminence-based” (listen to the expert’s experience; dependence on authority figures) to “evidence-based” (nullius in verba, “on the word of no one”: “evidence” is based on a “hierarchy of evidence” where expert opinion is now at the bottom and at the top is big-picture systematic reviews).
iv) Nuanced critics of mainstream science institutions:
--We can start with Goldacre, who pushes for the expansion of the “evidence-based” paradigm against the profiteers that hinder it:
-Bad Science: Quacks, Hacks, and Big Pharma Flacks
-I Think You'll Find It's a Bit More Complicated Than That
…Goldacre opens the door to the conflicts of “evidence-based medicine” in a capitalist economy that permeates everything from scientific education/research to healthcare delivery: Bad Pharma: How Drug Companies Mislead Doctors and Harm Patients
--Next, we get into the murky water of the rigidity/limitations of “evidence-based”, i.e. what questions are we asking/how are we asking them? What are the biases of “evidence”, i.e. biasing quantitative measurements when many important questions are qualitative?
…Goldacre is aware of the vast gaps in our medical “evidence” (including for certain established medical practices) which indeed have mysterious relationships (esp. when we get into how the mind works like placebo and nocebo effects, how we experience and treat pain, etc.).
…Goldacre also recognizes the non-statement of “more research is needed”. How will this new research answer questions that existing research has not answered? Those desperate for answers (ex. sick with mysterious diseases) are particularly vulnerable to scamming profiteers.
--I’ll be curious to evaluate how experienced scientists (note: often quite specialized in their particular fields) navigate this, given the mixed reviews for Molecules Of Emotion: The Science Behind Mind-Body Medicine which Maté cites.
-examples I’ve enjoyed: Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge, and the Teachings of Plants
-looking forward to reading: The Dialectical Biologist
-examples I’ve found problematic: How the World Really Works: A Scientist's Guide to Our Past, Present and Future


Kevin Rebecca wrote: "Fantastic review Kevin! This one has been on my radar 👌🏻💖"

Thanks Rebecca, you're too fast as I was still posting the rest of my review in the comments, can't fit it into the character limits :P


message 7: by Elliot (new) - added it

Elliot Hanowski Thanks for this very interesting and incisive review!


message 8: by Viki (new) - added it

Viki I got this for Christmas and after reading your review, I can’t wait to read it


Kevin Elliot wrote: "Thanks for this very interesting and incisive review!"

Cheers Elliot, I'll be relieved when I finish the next one so I can finally put Jordan Peterson to rest!


Kevin Viki wrote: "I got this for Christmas and after reading your review, I can’t wait to read it"

Cheers Viki, great gift (well I'd say so as I gifted it to my folks haha)


message 11: by John (new)

John Sin of omission tailored to confirmation biases, just like "The Road to Serfdom".


Kevin John wrote: "Sin of omission tailored to confirmation biases, just like "The Road to Serfdom"."

After Peterson, still have to do Hayek, sigh. They make you do all the work of filling in their omissions...

It's really the obvious strategy for con artists:
i) Can't compete in academic/political content (ex. Hayek floundering against Keynes), so instead make a niche competing in rhetorical flair (the art of the con).
ii) Debate strategy = burying the opposition who has to keep up with all the omissions (Ben Shapiro's speed-talking strategy).

In readership, Hayek's general public rhetoric The Road to Serfdom definitely surpassed:
i) Keynes's academic The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money
ii) Polanyi's The Great Transformation: The Political and Economic Origins of Our Time, such trememndous content wrapped in such tedious writing style.


message 13: by Boadicea (new) - added it

Boadicea This is one impressive review. Reading about Jordan Peterson’s personal life activated my BS monitor although I think his self-authoring system may have some useful stuff. Beyond that, he’s a clinical psychologist with a weird exclusion diet and a prior addiction to Xanax that required a hospital admission in Russia for “deep sedation therapy”. I suppose the latter is the only common ground he shares with Maté who sounds much more grounded in both science and medicine dealing with life’s failures on a daily basis. I now know who I’d prefer to follow into the fiery firmament of politics!


Kevin Boadicea wrote: "This is one impressive review. Reading about Jordan Peterson’s personal life activated my BS monitor although I think his self-authoring system may have some useful stuff. Beyond that, he’s a clini..."

You know, I've generally downplayed my BS monitor regarding personal life because my political economy background is so structural. It took me a while to re-calibrate to the topic of (personal) psychology.

Thanks for the reminder of Peterson's past more-academic works, which I haven't explored. I've focused on the general cultural impact of a Peterson, and to me his bestseller definitely contradicts between:
a) ideals (indeed has some uses, given the generalities of self-help), vs.
b) practice ("fiery firmament of politics")
...in terms of "dealing with life’s failures on a daily basis", Peterson is providing a how-to-kill survival manual for soldiers, whereas Maté's survival manual also challenges the war.


Cristian Cristea As usual, one of the best reviews, Kevin! Have you ever thought of uploading videos with these reviews? There is so much insight, attention to details and context that it definitely worth a higher podium.

I read this last year. It is funny that I started reading the 12 rules of JP in the same period. I finished Maté’s book feeling sorry that it ended. JP’s “masterpiece “ is still somewhere at rule 7 or 8.
Maté’s book is deep, tries to get to the root and core of the issues. JP is only a veneer.


Kevin Cristian wrote: "As usual, one of the best reviews, Kevin! Have you ever thought of uploading videos with these reviews? There is so much insight, attention to details and context that it definitely worth a higher ..."

Cheers Cristian, you definitely read my/our mind(s)! In 2 groups we've been talking about starting videos for ages, to provide resources on a more accessible platform.

I know I'm overthinking the visual component and the fact that it will always be a learning process without perfection (esp. the beginning). It's also the time commitment to test the unknown. Last time we talked, the idea of starting small like a podcast was also mentioned.

You know, I actually finished 12 Rules relatively smoothly, despite the fact that I physically could not listen to more than a couple minutes of Peterson debating Zizek on Marxism.

With Marxism, a specific topic, why bother? Peterson is completely wasting everyone's time not even bothering have any awareness of the topic. But with the self-help book (a mess of philosophy, politics, personal experiences, etc.), I found it so relatable in the sense that I know several folks who were lured into it, where the rhetorical techniques are of course more interesting than the actual content. Frankly, I've experienced relatable trash when I was apolitical, so it was interesting revisiting that context. Though it will be a relief to finish reviewing it so I can stop thinking out it haha

I'm now reading Maté's book for the third time; the structural critiques clicked right away but the self-inquiry/healing parts are very foreign (that part where he says when people ask him "how are you feeling?" and he replies "how should I know?!" is so relatable!).


message 17: by Utku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Utku Ören Fantastic review Kevin. Podcast or video series as iadeas sound amazing. It is much easier than you may think nowadays to start these. From one perfectionist to another (or so I suspect). :)


Kevin Utku wrote: "Fantastic review Kevin. Podcast or video series as iadeas sound amazing. It is much easier than you may think nowadays to start these. From one perfectionist to another (or so I suspect). :)"

Cheers Utku! I'm curious how you divide your intake of books/videos/audio?

1) Written format: I rely on the "book" format (preferring dives over short articles). I usually start with an audio version (even creating my own text-to-speech files which I know most won't tolerate) so I can chip away during commutes. I then spend a lot of time transcribing my notes, and I'm particularly interested in the formatting of notes (hence how my reviews are structured) rather than the expansive linear formatting of books.

2) Video format: my interest here is mostly for sharing (accessible for others because low commitment/familiar medium). For myself, I find my dives (particularly structural topics) cannot be filled with sufficient visuals, thus visuals can become distractions and (hence reluctance with this medium).

3) Audio format: while I know audiobooks are an acquired taste, I think podcast's conversational format offers a dynamic variation for unpacking large topics, with an interesting personal aspect. Of course, you're also exposing more of yourself to the public. When I was apolitical, I actually started with basically the precursors of Jordan Peterson in this format (Adam Carolla and Joe Rogan), and perhaps because of this I've not returned to this format.


message 19: by Brad (new) - rated it 4 stars

Brad Amazing! It's a topic close to my heart, too. Thanks for sharing this review. This is jumping up high on the list.


Kevin Brad wrote: "Amazing! It's a topic close to my heart, too. Thanks for sharing this review. This is jumping up high on the list."

Cheers Brad! What has been your path in exploring this topic? Maté’s steady expansion towards structural critiques (this book being his most expansive) has obvious been intuitive (structural critiques of political economy); my main difficulties:

i) interpreting psychology research: Ben Goldacre (I Think You'll Find It's a Bit More Complicated Than That) has wired me to be extra careful here, given the difficulties in well-designed studies on human behavior; of course, Goldacre acknowledges the profound impacts of the mind/social relations on health (starting with the placebo effect), he's just exceedingly careful in making strong, specific claims.

ii) personal self-inquiry


message 21: by Alan (new) - rated it 4 stars

Alan Gerstle I think a central reason why the two are often compared to one another is because both are Canadian, which placed them within the same social ecology systemic and one that is bereft of many 'loud mouth,' opionaters as exist in the U.S. nor should it be lost on readers that Mate, geographically & ideologically, hails from a European liberal tradition while Peterson seems to have harnessed the quasi pragmatic, individualistic self concept of the determined will.


Kevin Alan wrote: "I think a central reason why the two are often compared to one another is because both are Canadian, which placed them within the same social ecology systemic and one that is bereft of many 'loud m..."

That is a fair reminder for me that I live in Canada, biasing me to center this social ecology, in particular this epicenter where Jordan Peterson is hoisted up as a prominent "public intellectual" smh.


message 23: by Brad (new) - rated it 4 stars

Brad Kevin wrote: "Brad wrote: "Amazing! It's a topic close to my heart, too. Thanks for sharing this review. This is jumping up high on the list."

Cheers Brad! What has been your path in exploring this topic? Maté’..."


1. James Davies's "Cracked: The Unhappy Truth About Psychiatry" stands out for me as an overview of the history of the DSM and an explicit methodical critique of commercial influence on clinical research along with how that informs contemporary medical practice. Davies's style is reminiscent of Goldacre, though I don't recall Davies specifically citing him. While it's perhaps more tangential, in revisiting the work of Mark Fisher I see the core points of a social psychological critique of conceptions of mental health by way of cultural critique.

Alfie Kohn's critical psychological critique of crude behaviorism (see: "Punished by Rewards") is also tangential but fascinating for its exposure of assumptions and methods of behavioural control that doubtless frame what we think of as mental health in psychiatry.

2. Personal self-inquiry and experience. Without self-indulging or soul-baring in excess, I'll say simply that toxicity and mythical normality are quotidian and impossible to avoid for a neurodivergent person. Growing up I always found myself...unsatisfied by the pathologizing caricatures, lack of nuance and lack of context in literature ostensibly there to explain my quirks to myself.


Kevin Brad wrote: "Kevin wrote: "Brad wrote: "Amazing! It's a topic close to my heart, too. Thanks for sharing this review. This is jumping up high on the list."

Cheers Brad! What has been your path in exploring thi..."


Davie: ah yes, his works have been on my radar as indeed they've been advertised as reminiscent of Goldacre, although lately I've been challenged with more specific, radical works and have been daunted by the work needed to synthesize the gaps.

"Tangential": useful way of describing Fisher from what I've read as well. Maté references Kohn too. Going back to Goldacre, I'm overall still quite wary of what I read in psychology. I can fill in the gaps in Maté's structural critiques that confirm to my interests in the political economy (its power hiding in abstraction). Deconstructive critiques comes the easiest. Healing, difficult.

...Prevention in the form of constructive alternatives in the messy real-world with all its contradictions/limitations/levels of analysis (from local to geopolitical), well... My headspace is currently occupied with the violent histories of decolonization (particularly interested in unpacking reactionary blowback to reforms/revolutions), and looking ahead at climate/nuclear crises. What did you make of Fanon?


message 25: by Brad (new) - rated it 4 stars

Brad The thrust of Fanon's "Wretched of the Earth" is: "The economic infrastructure is also a superstructure." I've found that keeping that conceptualization of an inverted base-superstructure relationship in the back of my mind has been invaluable for breaking any personal tendency to veer toward economism. If we're to treat this model as material then we should contextualize and complicate the way those two structural layers relate.

In keeping with that, for Fanon, a break with the structured relations of colonialism comes in tandem with a psychological break in the colonized subjectivity. "The colonist keeps the colonized in a state of rage, which he prevents from boiling over,"...except it does boil over, into national liberation but also into internecine struggle in the colony. Decolonization, one might say, is a death drive of the colonial subject as such.

"Challenging the colonial world is not a rational confrontation of viewpoints...but the impassioned claim by the colonized that the world is fundamentally different."

In short, I'd credit Fanon's psychoanalysis with deeply influencing a sort of personal journey beyond crude materialism toward mixing in elements of affect theory and psychology. The structural critique matters, but it can be glimpsed through analysis of subjectivity and Fanon reminds us how that's a dimension that shouldn't be lost on us. A genuine pedagogy of the oppressed won't and couldn't suppress that simmering anger and its, for Fanon, overdetermining influence. Maybe there's something to relate that to critical psychology and the structured subjectivity of neurodiversity (what authority defines as madness is something Fanon confronts) but I'll stop myself there.


message 26: by Utku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Utku Ören Kevin wrote: "Utku wrote: "Fantastic review Kevin. Podcast or video series as iadeas sound amazing. It is much easier than you may think nowadays to start these. From one perfectionist to another (or so I suspec..."

Hey!

I believe time spent for books/videos/podcasts are 25/50/25 percent of total respectively.

My preferred medium would be the podcast to consume such content.

Sorry for my late reypl. Earthquake in Turkey took all my attention for the last 10 days.


Kevin Utku wrote: "Kevin wrote: "Utku wrote: "Fantastic review Kevin. Podcast or video series as iadeas sound amazing. It is much easier than you may think nowadays to start these. From one perfectionist to another (..."

Priorities! That's made international awareness, what is the situation in your area? Best wishes Utku!


message 28: by Kevin (last edited Feb 15, 2023 10:22PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kevin Brad wrote: "The thrust of Fanon's "Wretched of the Earth" is: "The economic infrastructure is also a superstructure." I've found that keeping that conceptualization of an inverted base-superstructure relations..."

ah, there's the review I was looking for :)

Reminds me of how I read Graeber, where his idealist inversions (while still relating to useful materialist political economy references, like Marx/Polanyi/Michael Hudson/Wallerstein etc.) would not be my go-to, but do seem disproportionately useful after the materialist structures are built.

Speaking of Graeber and Fanon, I'm curious what can be synthesized from:

a) Graeber/Wengrow's use of "culture areas"/"schismogenesis" (cultural identity from differences), from what I recall connecting (in the context of long history) a proliferation of culture areas with "how we got stuck" in losing the freedoms to shape/reshape social realities (social imagination, the idealist view).

b) "internecine struggle in the colony" from colonialism's divide-and-rule blatantly distorting differences, and it's continued legacy. I'll definitely re-visit Fanon after initially getting stuck with his psychoanalysis...


message 29: by John (new)

John The author includes critiques of societal issues, but when it comes to healing the psychologist discipline takes over and revolves back to the individual. What are the gaps such as what is needed for group healing?


Kevin John wrote: "The author includes critiques of societal issues, but when it comes to healing the psychologist discipline takes over and revolves back to the individual. What are the gaps such as what is needed f..."

This deserves much more attention, for example in the context of reconciliation vs. settler colonialism in Canada which is local for Maté.

What forms of social healing are required after mass social violence? I'm reading up on the 1965-66 genocide in Indonesia against communists/leftists, sadly one of the worst examples of truth and reconciliation.


message 31: by Yes (new) - added it

Yes Chickens thanks for the review!


message 32: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael Brilliantly comprehensive review, bravo! Framing it as Peterson vs. Maté lays bare how much Peterson's worldview wrests on the necessity of conforming to ideal-types as a kind of self-defense and defense-of-family mechanism that is profoundly harmful and inconsiderate of social needs: authenticity is futile. The selection of quotes from Peterson which you've included are quite scary, honestly.


Kevin Michael wrote: "Brilliantly comprehensive review, bravo! Framing it as Peterson vs. Maté lays bare how much Peterson's worldview wrests on the necessity of conforming to ideal-types as a kind of self-defense and d..."

Cheers Michael!

I've been stuck reviewing Peterson's self-help book for months; it's such a sneaky format to insert countless reactionary ideas without having to back them up.

It reminds me of reactionaries throwing out "facts" in rapid secession, purposely not leaving any time to actually unpack each point.
ex. Shapiro's nasal speed-talking.
ex. reactionary conspiracies leaping from (completely disconnected) point to point, just trying to keep you off track.

After all this time, it still somewhat worked on me, as I was:
i) distracted by Peterson tactfully revealing some vulnerability to suffering, despite his admiration for hierarchical dominance. It's such a clever lure, just like Trump's speeches recognizing "American carnage" (from capitalist outsourcing/automation/volatility).
ii) prioritizing critiquing Peterson's Red Scare tactics.
...The hideous trauma-normalization only truly surfaced after reading Maté's book immediately after; once again, you can sneak in so many reactionary points this way.


message 34: by Samuel (new)

Samuel Bigglesworth Very interesting and thorough comparison, thanks. What is also interesting is the contrasting style in which the two talk. Peterson has a hardy speaking style, there is tension in his voice, he likes to interrupt others, he is impassioned and energetic, he likes to interrogate statements, flip them over, turn them around. Peterson is intensely intellectual, and has the tendency to frame emotionally difficult experiences as opportunities to show strength, and learn from. Maté is softer spoken, discusses in more of a co-operative style. Maté's style is peaceful and composed, he consider's other's statements before responding. Maté is emotionally sensitive and has the tendency to frame all negative emotional experiences as trauma. They are yin and yang in a way. I'm glad we have both.


Thoth Harris Yes, Samuel, I agree that it’s great we have both. I would like to see a live debate between the two of them. Or even just have one interview the other. I wonder if Peterson has heard Maté’s cutting commentary about Peterson’s supposedly being “too angry?” Has that bothered Peterson? Or is he just trying to stick to his own market bubble and that’s it? (In terms of marketing bubbles, I might add this about Maté, too, despite his willingness to comment very briefly, in both written and spoken forms, about Peterson).


message 36: by Kevin (last edited Mar 04, 2023 12:28AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kevin Samuel wrote: "Very interesting and thorough comparison, thanks. What is also interesting is the contrasting style in which the two talk. Peterson has a hardy speaking style, there is tension in his voice, he lik..."

Cheers Samuel. I agree with your observations of their different styles, but I'm wary of putting too much emphasis on style (in hopes of a yin-yang balance) rather than substance.

On social issues, Peterson plays to confirmation biases of those who want a dominant style to cut through the voices (which indeed vary in style and substance) they cannot relate to, all the while using the sin of omission (substance) to revive their faith in their narrow world view.

This allows Peterson to appear "intensely intellectual" as he is literally preaching to the choir, sprinkling in some convenient under-read passages from the Bible/Dostoyevsky/Nietzsche. His audience is brought up (1) naturalizing capitalism/colonialism, and (2) captivated by fears of the Red Scare/state socialism/Marxism/Neomodernism.

When he actually gets challenged directly on those omissions, it is shocking his ignorance. In the debate with Zizek (messy choice) on "Marxism", Peterson's admitted knowledge on the topic was re-reading the Communist Manifesto (pamphlet), something he read when he was younger. His regular audience lets him get away with this, but his sins of omission utterly fail "intensely intellectual".

What is the "yin" to such omissions? On Marxism and other social science/geopolitical economy topics, Maté cannot serve as the "yin" as these are also outside his experience (regardless of my preference for his general approach). So, the most fruitful debate would have to be narrowed to clinical psychology, and Maté's book here demonstrates the limitations of narrowing a discipline and omitting the wider social context.


Michelle N Thank you for this in-depth review, especially in comparison to Peterson's viewpoint. I enjoyed reading your well laid out arguments and supporting quotes and reference material.
I have read this book once, and it left me reeling as so much has resonated with me personally and what I see in society at large... I will have to reread it and make notes of all the crucial parts. This book has just reaffirmed my beliefs about healing myself and how to do better in terms of my parenting skills.


Kevin Michelle wrote: "Thank you for this in-depth review, especially in comparison to Peterson's viewpoint. I enjoyed reading your well laid out arguments and supporting quotes and reference material.
I have read this b..."


Cheers Michelle,

Society at large: I got into this book having followed Maté's work on addiction here in Vancouver (In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction), so I've been waiting for him to push more towards examining society at large (what I read/study) and that was my focus going in.

Personal: ...but indeed I also had to stop and re-evaluate on the personal level esp. after reading the parenting (esp. repression, stress) and healing (always the most challenging, although I'm also interested in healing beyond the individual level) parts. My influences on psychology/evidence (ex. I Think You'll Find It's a Bit More Complicated Than That) have made me wary of this area, lots of work needed...


Jophin Mathai Thanks for taking out time to do reviews, Kevin :)

While I read the Myth of Normal, I couldn't help but connect it to a book I read earlier: Health Communism. Mate's book is important because it makes certain themes and ways of thinking accessible, and challenges common sense,/i>. This alone is an important project IMO.

Worth quoting a passage from 'Health Communism':
Health under capitalism is an impossibility. Under capitalism, to attain health you must work, you must be productive and normative, and only then are you entitled to the health you can buy. This fantasy of individual health under the political-economic conditions of capitalism only ever exists as a state one cannot be, to which one must always strive.



message 40: by Jayjaypl (new)

Jayjaypl Peterson - as i know - took voice in themese where actually he dont know what he is talking about. Like about philosophy when he was stunned by Slavoj Zizek knowledge ;]


Kevin Jophin wrote: "Thanks for taking out time to do reviews, Kevin :)

While I read the Myth of Normal, I couldn't help but connect it to a book I read earlier: Health Communism. Mate's book is import..."


Cheers Jophin, I definitely agree, my excitement with this book is first in its accessibility in communicating a paradigm shift in our common sense of "normal", starting from personal-social relations (“It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a sick society.”) which inevitably confronts capitalism's system goals.

Indeed, I was recently discussing reading Health Communism with someone studying public health, as well as:
-(2011) The Healthcare Crisis: A Crisis of Artificial Scarcity
-(1975) A New Outlook on Health

It's so strange working in public health because its openly-stated goals are about as socialist/communist as you can get (universal access to quality social services), yet it is so compartmentalized by the dictates of the capitalist economy.

Your quote reveals how much of capitalist healthcare is forced to be reactive rather than preventative, and this contradiction increases exponentially when we consider capitalism's ecological crisis! COVID is a relatively-minor test of our system's contradictory goals, exposing its fragility. How can we possibly conceptualize our "health" on a planet becoming terminally ill?


message 42: by Kevin (last edited Mar 27, 2023 10:57PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kevin Jayjaypl wrote: "Peterson - as i know - took voice in themese where actually he dont know what he is talking about. Like about philosophy when he was stunned by Slavoj Zizek knowledge ;]"

Sadly I didn't even get to Zizek's part, although I haven't had much success with Zizek so far (have you?)...

Since you mentioned "Neomarxism" elsewhere, I should be direct and say my main issue with Peterson is not on philosophy, but on debating "Marxism" while omitting historical context and political economy. Simply relying on Solzhenitsyn as universal proof leads to a reactionary reductionism demonizing any egalitarian challenge to the status quo as a road-to-the-gulag.

Ex. later Solzhenitsyn (1978) critiqued US's withdrawal from Vietnam on the grounds of giving up to Communist authoritarianism. This is so perverse:

i) Historical context: when the status quo is colonialism, it's common for Global South decolonization/nationalism to push egalitarian challenges (esp. land reforms given colonial rural conditions) regardless of their party name.

ii) Political economy: land reforms break up colonial/feudal relations, thus are often part of industrialization and even capitalist market relations. Indeed, the US supported land reforms in their puppet regimes in Japan/South Korea/Taiwan.

iii) Geopolitical economy: US elites clearly did not fear road-to-the-gulag human rights in Vietnam (dropping more bombs on anti-colonial peasants than on WWII fascists); they feared a good example from obvious moves for social needs being associated with a "communist" (even nationalist) flag.

...For Solzhenitsyn to not recognize this means he is either too clouded by anti-leftist zealotry, or he is being deceptive (or both), and Peterson readily embodies this.


message 43: by Bayan (new) - added it

Bayan Assaf I love your review and your writing style. This is the next book I'm reading! Thank you.


Kevin Bayan wrote: "I love your review and your writing style. This is the next book I'm reading! Thank you."

Enjoy the book Bayan! I'll be curious what you make of it with your interest in psychology. Meanwhile, I've been stuck reviewing Peterson's book for months :(


message 45: by John (new)

John For a critical take on the politics of reconciliation in Canada, see "Red Skin, White Masks: Rejecting the Colonial Politics of Recognition".


Kevin John wrote: "For a critical take on the politics of reconciliation in Canada, see "Red Skin, White Masks: Rejecting the Colonial Politics of Recognition"."

--As I got stuck on Fanon, I'm now so far behind on Coulthard as well! Red Skin, White Masks esp. Ch. 4 "Seeing Red: Reconciliation and Resentment" looks very promising, I'm just hoping we all post our notes as reading is endless [bold emphases added]:

1) Historicizing to hide continuing colonial structures:
Over the last three decades, a global industry has emerged promoting the issuing of official apologies advocating “forgiveness” and “reconciliation” as an important precondition for resolving the deleterious social impacts of intrastate violence, mass atrocity, and historical injustice. Originally, this industry was developed in state contexts that sought to undergo a formal “transition” from the violent history of openly authoritarian regimes to more democratic forms of rule—known in the literature as “transitional justice”—but more recently has been imported by somewhat stable, liberal-democratic settler polities like Canada and Australia. [...]

First, as a critique of the field and practice of transitional justice, Brudholm’s study is “limited to the aftermath of mass atrocities” and to the “time after the violence has been brought to an end.” [...]

In such conditions, reconciliation takes on a temporal character as the individual and collective process of overcoming the subsequent legacy of past abuse, not the abusive colonial structure itself.

2) Psychologizing to hide ongoing resistance:
And what are we to make of those who refuse to forgive and/or reconcile in these situations? They are typically cast as being saddled by the damaging psychological residue of this legacy, of which anger and resentment are frequently highlighted. [...]

Fanon held a very nuanced perspective on both the potentially transformative and retrograde aspects of colonized peoples’ “hatred, contempt and resentment” when expressed within and against the subjective and structural features of colonial power. [...]

First, far from being a largely disempowering and unhealthy affliction, I show that under certain conditions Indigenous peoples’ individual and collective expressions of anger and resentment can help prompt the very forms of self-affirmative praxis that generate rehabilitated Indigenous subjectivities and decolonized forms of life in ways that the combined politics of recognition and reconciliation has so far proven itself incapable of doing.

And second, in light of Canada’s failure to deliver on its emancipatory promise of postcolonial reconciliation, I suggest that what implicitly gets interpreted by the state as Indigenous peoples’ ressentiment—understood as an incapacitating inability or unwillingness to get over the past—is actually an entirely appropriate manifestation of our resentment: a politicized expression of Indigenous anger and outrage directed at a structural and symbolic violence that still structures our lives, our relations with others, and our relationships with land. [...]

Rather than addressing these structural issues [current institutional and social relationships], state policy has instead focused its reconciliation efforts on repairing the psychologically injured or damaged status of Indigenous people themselves. Sam McKegney links this policy orientation to the increased public interest placed on the “discourse of healing” in the 1990s, which positioned Aboriginal people as the “primary objects of study rather than the system of acculturative violence.”



message 47: by John (new)

John Another difficulty with this book's topic is navigating the growing industry of alternative medicine and all its con artists.


Kevin John wrote: "Another difficulty with this book's topic is navigating the growing industry of alternative medicine and all its con artists."

Such a messy topic that needs to be carefully unpacked:

1) Business con artists:
--We can see a range of these types, from:
i) overt snake oil salespeople whose backgrounds are in business (I mean, the entire advertising industry is a scam to varying degrees)
ii) ...to useful idiots who are actually convinced themselves (to varying degrees), i.e. gone through shoddy alternative medicine schooling which at its core often geared towards business.
--On the above, I can quite comfortably rely on Goldacre (who relies on the "evidence-based medicine" paradigm):
-Bad Science: Quacks, Hacks, and Big Pharma Flacks
-I Think You'll Find It's a Bit More Complicated Than That
--Crucial giveaways are:
i) crude critiques of power in "science"/society, conveniently replicated in their own alternatives which require just as much dependency on a voice of authority/lack of transparency as their understanding of "science" (no doubt from consuming "scientists say..." distortions of capitalism media, rather than rigorous study).
ii) reductionist view of reality: capitalizing on the unknowns of sciences (a recognition of the sheer complexities of the real world), their alternatives are conveniently simply, once again playing to capitalist applications of science: this wonderous natural product hushed up by Big Pharma will solve your ills, because it's what nature intended!
...Con artists are unfortunate distractions to their audience, as well as a convenient low-hanging fruit for pro-establishment defenders to tar insightful critiques in a crude manner (similar to how "conspiracy theories" is used to bunch together insightful with outlandish claims).

2) Critics of institutional sciences with some insight:
--After we peel off the overt business swindlers, it gets much more interesting.
i) Critics of profit-seeking institutions:
--we can see how this becomes increasingly challenging, ex. by considering the scope (and limitations) of Goldacre's attempt: Bad Pharma: How Drug Companies Mislead Doctors and Harm Patients
ii) Political battles within/between scientific fields and with social sciences:
-ex. Goldacre mentions the scientific backgrounds of AIDS denialism
-ex. climate change denial in the science community: Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming
...where some of the body-mind material that Maté cites fits is intriguing, particularly a work like Molecules Of Emotion: The Science Behind Mind-Body Medicine where the author is a legit neuroscience researcher.
...this also reminds me of Smil describing complex science has become where most scientists are specialists lacking general knowledge. Of course, Smil himself is a curious example when synthesizing with social sciences: How the World Really Works: A Scientist's Guide to Our Past, Present and Future
iii) science paradigms:
--on the surface, Goldacre's "evidence-based medicine" paradigm has certain debates on the rigidity of the "hierarchy of evidence"; ex. Trisha Greenhalgh (How to Read a Paper: The Basics of Evidence-based Medicine) on how this was tested during COVID-19 (youtube "Trish Greenhalgh - ‘Real v Rubbish EBM’"). If we dig deeper, how do the study designs bias certain questions over others?
...on a deeper level: I've not had much luck with the philosophy of science, but I do find the history of science useful in contemplating Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.


message 49: by Mom (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mom Incredible review. Thank you.


Kathy Van Zeyl Thank you for the in depth review and JP comparison! So much of Peterson’s preaching and projections rub me the wrong way… in the last few months I’ve taken to using Dr. Mate’s book to hide the JP section at Indigo and dang it, after just finishing Myth of Normal this totally feels justified! 😂


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